thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. >> hi, nicolle. i am ari melber and the doctor is in. anthony fauci is here with me tonight. this is a relatively rare interview these days on the lessons learned from serving

with seven presidents, plus fauci's view on america's voice this november. he had an up close and behind the scenes view of presidential leadership under crisis last time around. he is our special guest. i inn video viet you and urge you to stay with us tonight. also trump lawyer boris epshteyn facing a judge. we will cover that new arizona arraignment for them which occurred today later this hour. so that is all coming up. i think it will be interesting to hear from dr. fauci. we spoke with him so many times during the height of the pandemic, i can remember the intensity of that and trying to keep track of things and trying to be constructive as information and news channel. he is here under different circumstances and in some sense less intense. so that should be interesting. our top story is the clash that many americans may not realize is coming, and for good reason. let's be clear, summer has

begun, i hope you get views like that sooner or later. people are playing in the water, kids are out of school in most places, people are just living their lives, and few people are following the obscure revisions to the presidential debate calendar. so either you're probably not thinking about the fall election like those folks on the beach chairs, or if you are a political junky then you might remember how the fall elections debates are held in the fall. makes sense. and they've always been held in the fall. there's never been a general election debate in early summer, and yet things can change and that changes next week because these candidates will face off early, all because the biden folks routed around the traditional commission that's been operating this and setting that later calendar i mentioned for every decade they have been doing this. the biden folks have now launched their own debate calendar and trump agreed.

so these two candidates face off next week, making this right now a more intense campaign stretch than the typical june. trump's campaign in wisconsin, biden trying to thread the needle on immigration, marking the anniversary of the pro biden obama policy which shields children from deportation. it's something that then president obama said was a step forward even amidst also of tough work of policing the border. >> we have always drawn strength from being a nation of immigrants, as well as a nation of laws, and that's going to continue, and my hope is that congress recognizes that and get -- gets behind this effort. >> biden channeling that, trying to mix that obama message with, separately, stronger border enforcement. today he says he's fortifying the policy by protecting undocumented spouses of americans and a pathway to

citizenship. democrats are preferring this message today to what you may have also heard which is those restrictions on asylum and humanitarian protections which was basically biden getting tough at the border, but biden folks on the campaign and at the white house they think he can do both, and today he was touting this measure. >> folks, i'm not interested in playing politics at the border or on immigration. i'm interested in mixing it. i said it before and i will say it again today, i will work with anyone to solve these problems. that's my responsibility as president. >> we are joined right now by jake who worked with president obama's campaign and other presidential campaigns. >> good to be back. >> i don't know if you saw the beach chairs on your feed waiting to come on, but we were showing that people are out living and you would be forgiven, if you were to take a month off following this campaign any other year june would be the month, and yet with the debate next week it is

heating up. what do you see biden doing first there on immigration where all of the indications -- first of all, tough issue, but all of the indications show it's not a lay up, there are a lot of doubts and questions about immigration in the united states, how biden is handling it, and let's be clear, it's not just on the far right. >> yeah, i mean, i think what biden is doing is he's frankly following james carville's advice, he was on "the beat" yesterday, you've said that he talks occasionally to the white house. immigration is america but do not defend disorder. uniting families is orderly. keeping families apart is disorder. that is what biden is doing, he's saying we can have an orderly immigration process that is fair, that is humane, that is keeping with our best traditions, that keeps families together, but we also can fight against disorder. >> so let me ask you about

timing. you know nixon went to china. >> right. >> as did "forrest gump," people forget that. >> yes, he did. he may be a fictional character, but the whole china thing in that era was that you had to go right before you could go left. that was the thinking. >> right. >> and to make a simple comparison that seems to be what the biden folks have done here, they caught some flak and i showed the headline a couple weeks ago, going against asylum and what are basically humanitarian programs, which the left is generally supportive of. they did that first, going right, now today they're doing daca, they're doing what your old boss did, which is what you are describing as orderly but also more of a humanitarian program. do you think that was deliberate? what does that tell you about the biden strategy? >> well, i mean, they're very adroit, they're aware of weaknesses or problems that they have coming up, but i would argue and push back that what biden has done today and what he's been doing is keeping with democratic tradition.

democratic tradition is pro-immigration. we are the party of the statue of liberty, but we are also the party that believes as president obama did, as president clinton did, as president biden believes that there is a better way of doing this, there is an orderly way of doing this, and that that is what we need to do first and foremost, make sure that we have an orderly process in which we have families united, we have more workers in this country, we reinvigorate our nation's fabric with immigration. >> on the debates which i mentioned biden's team has been telegraphing, look, he has a busy day job, he is not doing a ton of prep. trump is striking a similar note, they say no debate prep, everyone is always trying to work the expectations game. trump has always gone his own way at the debates, it seemed to work in 2016, but in 2020 as that pandemic ravaged the nation trump's performance, his style of musings didn't play well. >> nobody has done it. so we're cutting health care. you look at what's going on with divorce, look at what's going on

with alcoholism and drugs, it's a very, very sad thing. i'm totally underleveraged because the assets are extremely good and we have a very -- i built a great company. >> new york, it's a ghost town. it's a ghost town. and when you talk about plexiglas -- >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> yeah, that was a spectacularly terrible debate performance and it's keeping with a tradition with the debates that the incumbent president always loses the first debate, however, going into this debate we basically have two incumbent presidents, donald trump is the first nominee of a major party to win the nomination without debating since the 1970s. it has been that long since somebody has gotten the party's nomination without doing a debate who is not an incumbent president. he has been treated like an incumbent president for the last several years. he has never been on the stage with anyone who is his equal,

everyone bows down to him and this debate is really dangerous for him which is why you're hearing people like sean hannity say, hey, maybe he shouldn't do this debate because he is setting himself up for a fall with this. >> carville was urk that as well, whether he will do that or not. we're seeing the age issue flare back up, i wanted to show you how some of the hypocrisy is being lampooned on late night. >> this weekend trump appeared at the herbal life of political conventions, turning point, usa. trump articulated his case for having best brainful neurons smart. >> the big money guy said things like meandering and he doesn't know what he's talking about and i was surprised. you were surprised? >> the election has basically boiled down to each candidate accusing the other of having soup where there should be

brain. >> if there is an age issue factually it applies to both of these candidates who are historically older, above the retirement age. >> you're right. >> but as you know the maga folks, the right wing and some of the sort of media ecosystem, "wall street journal" owned by murdoch have tried to say if it's an age issue it's only one side and they push that. we're seeing that push back to that pushing. do you think this all ends up being a wash? do you think the biden campaign has to continue having a strategy here? if you can disqualify someone by claiming factually or not that they are incompetent you are short-circuiting the rest of the debate. who is going to talk about immigration if you convince people in the states that matter that somebody whichever side isn't up to the job? >> yeah, i mean, i think the biden campaign's best strategy is to get biden out there.

to have him be seen, to have him be in i would say nontraditional venues like late night talk shows, "snl," popular podcasts, daytime tv, just put him out there as much as possible so people see him and see how he speaks and see how competent he is. then you have a debate contrast with donald trump who is going to be rambling, who is going to be saying a lot of crazy things because that's all he's been doing for the last couple of years. when people see that contrast, that will -- that will work to biden's advantage. and that's why i would say if this debate goes well and i expect it to go well for biden because biden if you notice has overperformed expectations, state of the union, every single time he has had his back against the wall he has overperformed expectations, i expect him to do that this time. if this goes well he does do more debates. i think having as many debates as possible and having people see and hear donald trump and see and hear him works to biden's advantage. >> really interesting. we covered some good ground with you. speaking of whether experience

ties into how well you can do a job i'm going to keep it moving because i have a big guest tonight who is not 30,'s he not 40. >> no. >> but he was relied on by a lot of presidents in both parties over the years as we say. you might know who i'm talking about, do you know who i'm talking about. >> yeah, dr. anthony fauci. >> dr. anthony fauci. >> a case where age brings wisdom and dr. anthony fauci has wisdom. he has to talk about how his years of experience has helped him and has translated into governing. >> interesting. jake, we knew you were a "beat" guest because we have had you on here, but with your references tonight you showed you are also a "beat" viewer. coming up, prosecutors going after the trump aide who admitted to the elector fraud plot on this program. we will follow the facts where they go and have an update on boris epshteyn. steve bannon not exactly going to club fed.

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what has impacted americans' lives, safety and the wider economy more than anything in the past decade? it's not crime or immigration or artificial intelligence, it's not policies from the politicians you oppose or like, whoever they may be. you probably know the answer, it's the big thing that was so intense, tragic and difficult some people don't even talk about it anymore if they can help it. the covid pandemic upended everything, right when it arrived in 2020. it caused over a million americans' deaths, over 7 million worldwide, and it's so savage and exhausted everyone it's almost odd how rarely we face it in detail nowadays. i mean, in our culture, our conversations and in policy planning, a lot of people just say, we lived it, what do you

want me to do? what more do you want me to say? the pandemic also put doctors and science at center stage for a time in our society and showed our challenges at dealing with science and facts amidst fear and division. many, as you probably remember, saw scientific leaders and dr. fauci at the helm as our save years in crisis, others saw them as villains of this sprawling conspiracy. >> dr. anthony fauci, he is the country's topest expert in infectious diseases. >> tony, your reputation is second to done. >> fauci's public comments and advice dating back several months to undermain his credibility. >> in that same call the doctor attached dr. anthony fauci, called him a dis aster. >> i have to say you are a spry 83 years old, have you thought about running for president? >> no. >> those are just some of the diverging views of dr. anthony

fauci, director of the national institute of allergy and infectious disease from 84 to 2022 working across seven different president sees, every single one since ronald reagan. he helped lead the country's response to aids, sars and ebola and the pandemic. he has a new book "on call: a doctor's journey in public service." welcome. >> thank you very much, ari. >> good to see you in-person. >> same here. we did that remote thing because of the pandemic. >> many times. >> everyone has heard so much from you in the government and leadership context. why did you want to now reflect on all of that in the book? >> well, i've reached a certain stage when just reflecting back that i had a very unique opportunity, a special -- i think a privilege to have been in public service for more than half a century and to be the director of the infectious disease institute for almost 40 years and i thought i wanted to

share that experience while i still have energy and passion about things because i thought it's an important story from the perspective of someone who lived through it as opposed to a historian who comes in from the outside. that was one reason to do the book. the other reason is i felt that it would serve hopefully as a source of inspiration for people who are either in public service and in public health, or younger people who might be considering a career about how gratifying it could be despite all the challenges which i describe in some detail in the book. >> yeah. and you also were up close in what we can all call an unusual and less consistent approach from president trump. >> correct. >> we have the trump tapes now where bob woodward was also talking to him. did you know at the time he was doing these side calls with bob? >> i did not know that, only after bob's book came out. >> so you have these recordings that are contemporaneous, we all

saw the briefings and the public stuff, but in private he's saying to bob about it's flaring up everywhere but we're going to control it immediately. >> right. >> take a listen to this at the time private discussion. >> it's flaring up all over the world, bob. by the way, all over the world. that was one thing i noticed last week. you know, they talk about this country. all over the world it's flaring up. but we have it under control. >> bob, who is seen as a very fair reporter and like you has dealt with many presidents, interestingly went farther than he has about most other presidents. he said, this idea that they had it under control was not under control, it was intentionally never under control. it was a crisis and the president was not acting. now that you're out of government, is that a fair criticism and assessment? is it too harsh? >> well, no, i think it's fair because, as i said in the book, when i was talking about my interaction with him, i felt very uncomfortable when he was saying it was going to disappear

like magic, it's just going to go away, because he so desperately wanted it to disappear the way flu disappears as you enter the end of the winter and the beginning of the spring, and that's when i had to publicly get up, which was very uncomfortable for me, i did not -- i was not happy about criticizing the president or disagreeing with the president, i said, no, it's not going to disappear like magic at all and when that became clear that's when we started talking about hydroxychloroquine which also has something that had no basis in science. >> so in the book you write there was this example, that one, of the president's tendency to, quote, try to wish away covid with solutions that had no basis. and then you talk about your complicated relationship with then president trump, that he was irate, he'd say you can't keep doing this to him, like it was personal, then he'd say, quote, he loved me, but the country was in trouble. i was making it worse. he added the stock market wept

up only 600 points in response to the positive phase one vaccine and should have gone up 1,000 points so i cost the country 1 trillion effing dollars. was that different than any other president you have dealt with -- sorry, i have to ask -- and does it strike you as the wrong priority set when people were still dying? >> of course and it was like a whiplash where in so many respects he didn't want to be angry with me because we had up until that point a pretty good relationship. that's when he would start saying things, you know, i care about you, i like you, i love you, but then he would start screaming at me. it's not fun being yelled at by the president of the united states. that was a bit unnerving. but i had to continue to tell the truth. and he said why do you keep doing this to me? because it's the truth. i'm telling the american public the facts. hydroxychloroquine doesn't work. the part about that was when i

said we might need -- when the vaccine comes out it may not have a durable immunity, we may need to have a booster. he got very upset at that because he wanted the country to think that once the vaccine came out that was it, one and done, and that's not what actually happened. so my prediction about that was correct, that we would need boosters and he got very upset at that. it was that kind of whiplash thing where we were getting along well and then i would say something that he didn't like and then all of a sudden i would be the bad guy. >> and that blunt fixation on selling a message or lying about it, his reelection, was that different and distinct from other presidents? >> there was a great deal of difference. again, i believe he wanted so badly for this to go away the way influenza goes away, and when he saw it was not going away, then he was hoping for some magical solution and

that's -- he even used those words, it's going to go away like magic. when that didn't work then we had to have these miracle cures like hydroxychloroquine which he got from laura ingraham on fox news. then he would bring in scott atlas who told him what he wanted to hear. it was tough. >> it's strikes because we're going towards an election where we're choosing between these two people and the pandemic is one of the most intense and high cost in lives crises you could ever have. so americans at the time rejected trump for that and other reasons and yet now you see them in a close race and it's sort of striking. you also dealt with a lot of these figures, peter navarro. >> right. >> who is currently incarcerated for defying a government subpoena, you write, there you go again, navarro shouted. i could tell that he disliked me. you don't know what you're talking b you guys have blood on your hands, he repeated his voice raised, assailed for for

disagreeing with the china ban in late january which was not true. did you think mr. navarro had the requisite credentials to be a policymaker on these issues? why did you have such disagreement and what do you think of him now that he's in a federal prison? >> i don't want to comment about the federal prison but he was a dog with a bone. he got done saying you're wrong about hydroxychloroquine. he came into the situation room uninvited with a whole stack of papers putting it on the table saying -- >> can you do that. >> i thought the point of the situation room was not everyone can come in. >> he said these are the papers where they say it works and you have blood on your hands because you're keeping it from the american people which actually took the vice president aipac and said, peter, i think you should take this outside. if you looked at mark short who is a good guy, mark looked at

him like what the heck are you doing here. >> vice president pence thought like a bouncer, peter navarro, take it out. >> he told peter, please take this outside. i give the vice president credit for doing that. that was just an interruption and in a serious conversation. >> i'm going to show something unusual for you and give you a second to process it because we have our shortest break. but jon stewart, you were just with colbert, jon stewart had come out of his semi sort of retirement to joke about something that also is serious which is the origins of covid and this idea that maybe folks underplayed or paid too little attention to the possibility that it came out of this wuhan lab. i'm going to play this briefly and you're staying with us. take a look at jon stewart on this. >> there's a novel respiratory coronavirus overtaking wuhan, china, what do we do? you know who we could ask, the wuhan novel respiratory

coronavirus lab. the disease is the same name as the lab. that's just -- that's just a little too weird, don't you think? >> that was 2021. i want to get your response to that and the serious part, dr. fauci has agreed to stay. we have our 90-second break and then we will be right back. 90-s then we will be right back yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat.

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to matter a lot, obviously we want to know, it matters for science and policy, and if it came from a foreign government's lab, that matters a ton. again, there is a lot on this, but i want to read just here from a recent piece that covers it, notes a year before the outbreak that same wuhan institute proposed creating viruses with this similar defining feature, the lab could not have contained an airborne virus as infectious as that according to these researchers and the hypothesis that this covid came from an animal is no longer, says at least this researcher who reviewed a lot and wrote about this in the "times," supported by strong evidence. so first of all question to you. >> right. >> based on what is known now, is it more likely than not that it came from that lab? >> no, and i think that "new york times" article was based on no science at all. if you talk to 100 virologists and read that article, there was no scientific basis for what she

said. let's put that aside for a moment. i'm surprised the "times" even let that opinion piece out. >> i will let you continue but since you are going at one thing which is what people do, "wall street journal," energy department of the united states. >> sure. sure. >> as you know energy department now says more likely than not lab leak, joining the fbi investigation that they feel it more likely spread via a mishap from that laboratory. i can give you other examples if you don't like the "times" piece. >> first of all, we have to keep an open mind. we don't know where it could have come from. it could have come from a lab, it could have come from a natural occurrence, but four of the intelligence agencies believe it much more likely came from a natural occurrence. >> and you believe as of what you know now that is more likely natural? >> i believe you have to keep an open mind. the thing that gets mixed up in this, ari, is that the nih years ago funded a grant to do some surveillance for bad viruses which was a grant that was appropriate because we knew that

the original sars came from a bat to a cat to a human. so the natural thing, it would have been almost irresponsible not to try to figure out what else was out there. the viruses that were studied under the nih grant were evolutionarily so different from sars that any evolutionary virologist worth their salt will tell you it could not possibly have come from those viruses because the precursor virus wasn't anything near evolutionary sars. having said that, put that to bed and say, could it have come from a lab in china? absolutely. that's the reason why we keep an open mind. but if you look at what evolutionary virologists do and the data that looks at is it a laboratory leak versus is it a natural occurrence from an animal reservoir, overwhelmingly the evolutionary virologists say it is more likely, not

definitive, no proof, but more likely to come from a natural reservoir. what are the data to show that it came from a lab? i haven't seen that data. no one has seen t that's the reason why i object to the "new york times" editorial opinion piece because there was no new data there. again, underline i keep an open mind, it could have been either. >> so open mind, but your view is it's still more likely natural origin. >> but that's my opinion based on the data. >> based on what you have. >> if somebody comes and gives you proof that it came somewhere from china. >> yeah. >> i will embrace that. >> did you notice that at times in the early stage it seemed like the lab leak was being treated as a conspiracy theory or fringe, is that fair to say? >> no. see, you have to look at the concept broadly of it coming from the lab is not a conspiracy theory. the people who believe that made all kinds of conspiracies about it. one in particular, that somehow like jason bourne i snuck into

the cia and convinced them to say that it was not a lab leak. i mean, that is a bit of a crazy conspiracy. >> it's interesting -- right, we're dealing in facts as we do here and it is tricky because there are many false conspiracy theories about this area. we make an effort not even to repeat those, i had bill gates on, he has been a subject of them as well, and yet there was also a very strong counterattack from some in the united states against discussing lab leak at all, which as you know then feeds into that. >> that was wrong. >> okay. >> the concept of it being a lab leak in and of itself it's not a conspiracy theory, it's what people did to articulate that that became a lot of conspiracies. >> yeah. in that related vein, you served your country and you served both parties and we showed trump initially saying good things about you and then other things. >> right. >> you are like many other public servants but you have a higher profile. >> right. >> the fact that there is a need during and after your time in office to have security, the

fact that these conspiracy theories and attacks are so extreme that mr. bannon and others we've shown are talking about, baselessly saying that you should be investigated and prosecuted or worse. >> killed. no, he wants me executed. >> executed. alex jones talks about that. again, i'm careful of not giving too much voice to the worst case. what does that say about what's wrong with discourse and debate in this country, a and what's your response to that? >> my response is going back to what i said in the book, that i've done this for almost 40 years and i've dealt with republican and democratic congresses and presidents, there's always been a diversity of ideological opinion. you know, middle left, far left, middle right, far right. >> sure. >> there has never been the degree of profound divisiveness that i've seen in all of my experience with other presidents, where you could have a situation where i got along

well with presidents george h.w. bush and president george w. bush in which we did the pet far program together which saved 25 billion lives as i did with barack obama and bill clinton and joe biden. now all of a sudden we have a country that's so divided that when somebody disagrees with you, you have people like bannon and alex jones saying, oh, kill them. i mean, what is that all about? that's completely crazy. >> it's wrong and the risk is when some people take it seriously. i did want to address that. we're running over on time and closing this lightning round, this is in a sentence. >> yes. >> might be hard for you. in one sentence. >> one sentence. >> i knew i had made it when -- >> when we got the drugs that changed the lives of persons with hiv and brought a death sentence to essentially a normal life. when we together with the pharmaceutical companies got those drugs out.

>> i thought it was over when -- >> it was horrible early years in hiv when i was literally working 18 hours a day and every one of my patients were dying. it was the most painful thing i have ever been through. >> and given what you've done and what you've done in public service, reaching the summit means -- >> reaching the summit means reaching a point where you can look back on your life and say -- which i do now -- i gave it 100% all the time and i left it all out on the court. let others judge the value of what i've done, but how i feel is when i can walk away from it and say, i left it all out there. >> dr. anthony fauci, great to see you in-person. >> shoe. >> thank you for being here. a long conversation and the book, again, "on call: a doctor's journey in public service." i've heard a lot of beat knicks buy books and read books and we encourage you to take a look at that book. up next, trump electors in

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two trump legal advisers had to report in for court proceedings today about election crimes, pleading not guilty this was in arizona to charges of fraud, forgery and conspiracy for the elector fraud that we've been reporting. this includes trump campaign lawyer jenna ellis who showed up virtually which is allowed under the rules, her lawyer stating she pleads not guilty on her

behalf, and an individual who still is in a powerful position as a current trump lawyer, boris epshteyn. he appeared via phone today for the same arraignment proceeding and pled not guilty to these crimes. now, when you look at elector fraud this is one of the plots we've been charging and tracking for a long time. if you go back far enough it didn't appear that states like arizona or georgia were actively going to charge anyone for this, that were actively investigating. and at the time we were still trying to do what we always do, go to the source, interview people, ask the questions and we asked mr. epshteyn about those questions. >> i was part of the process. everything that was done was done legally by the trump legal team according to the rules and under the leadership of rudy giuliani. >> that's about over two and a half years ago now and while he cited giuliani as a source of why it was, quote, legal, i think he might have misstated

the word illegally, i think he meant legally and that was the idea that giuliani was, you know, a legal credentialed individual. he was a former prosecutor. but that doesn't mean he is incapable of committing crimes. in fact, so many lawyers who have worked for trump have found themselves in these positions. take a look. disbarred, indicted, sometimes convicted. ms. ellis on the upper right in more than one state. now, it's part of the growing list of trump allies faces consequences. when you broaden out beyond the lawyers you see even more. mr. navarro who we mentioned in institutions with mr. fauci, mr. bannon convicted and awaiting prison in a matter of weeks, bannon is a key figure here because he's openly vowing revenge for what he says is his mistreatment. now, he will be in a federal prison in connecticut, it seemed low security, the neighboring women's prison there inspired the netflix series ""orange is the new black."" >> so we make our beds in the morning before --

>> you sleep on top of the bed with the blanket over you. >> what if i want to sleep in the bed? >> look, you can do what you want, but you will be the only one in this entire prison that does. >> don't eat the pudding. >> what's the perspective on the pudding? >> it comes in big cans marked desert storm. sometimes the kitchen has to scrape the mold off the top before they serve it. >> we are now joined by judge john jones iii, former chief judge for the u.s. middle district of pennsylvania. welcome. >> great to be with you, ari. >> i showed mr. epshteyn discussing that elector fraud plot with me, ms. ellis has basically expressed contrition. he has not. and mr. epshteyn is involved in overseeing trump lawyers including in new york where he was convicted. the first practical question to your view, is that a problem for his client donald trump or do

they continue on this way as trump has other lawyer co-defendants? >> well, it's going to be interesting to see. you know, as you well know as a member of the bar in addition to the criminal charges you have some ethical issues here as well and it may be that he has to surrender his license at some point, even before he's convicted, if he is convicted. that's up to individual bar associations. but, you know, what they are accused of doing is essentially fraudulently asserting that there was an alternate slate of objectors, at least in pennsylvania where i come from they hedged their bets and you kind of were on stand by instead of trying to represent that they were the actual electors in the case. but they went full throttle in these cases. and i have to laugh, you know, you talk -- he talks about the leadership of mayor giuliani. well, you know, you see where that goes. >> yeah. >> and happened to argue a case

in my district, the trump versus bookvar case in november of 2020 that crashed and burned. it ended up, among other things, rudy giuliani getting disbarred in that case because it was, as described by my then colleague, judge bran, it was a frankenstein monster of a case patched together with no basis whatsoever. >> yeah, and there's been a lot of questions about whether donald trump's sentencing will involve jail time or not and if he gets jail will he ever serve it, could it change on appeal. we all understand the deep interest in that. i'm curious given your experience as a judge about why it matters that so many of these other individuals including lawyers who should know better are facing these consequences. does it make it less likely that other maga lawyers will go as far if trump were to lose in november? >> you know, that's an excellent point, ari. and i have believed for some time, i'm part of a bipartisan

effort called keep our republic which really is trying to beat back the false narrative that it was a stolen election in 2020. i think judges are going to be hypervigilant for frivolous lawsuits. you know, i had a suit on my docket a month before the election in 2020 when i was still on the bench, the suit was so-called public interest group to strike supposedly dead voters off the rolls in democratic areas of pennsylvania. and i dismissed that suit because the only proof was that they hadn't voted. when you might be interested to know that when rudy giuliani had his famous press conference at the four seasons landscaping center, he was waving my decision around and decrying the fact that dead people voted in pennsylvania. you know, there was no proof whatsoever. you just can't do that. you know that. you know, as an attorney, you know, you're responsible for your pleadings. you can't make stuff up out of

whole cloth and i think the bench is going to have to be really vigilant, particularly as we get closer to the election. >> and do you think that that's going to change that initially -- because lawyers like to say, oh, zealous advocacy and you don't want to criminalize a debatable point but after the insurrection we're way past that. >> i think we are past it, and i think that some lawyers heard the siren song and they decided they were going to jump in and take, for example, mr. giuliani's word for it and other lawyers when they should have known better. you know, now they jeopardized their right and in some cases lost the right to practice law. that's a big deal, whether they're charged with crimes or not. and i think it is really important for judges to stay vigilant and if they think that something has been, you know, thrown against the wall like spaghetti to see if it sticks they should report that to the

disciplinary boards. nobody does that likely, but if you see it then you should report it. >> yeah. >> it can't go on like this. >> right. we hear from a lot of lawyers and prosecutors and it's interesting to get this perspective. judge jones, thank you, sir. >> thanks for having me, ari. for all the talk about violent crime, what about gun reform? that's next. t crime, what about reform that's next. discover the power of wegovy®. ♪ ♪ with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. ♪ ♪ and i'm keeping the weight off. wegovy® helps you lose weight and keep it off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only fda-approved weight-management medicine that's proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events in adults with known heart disease and with either obesity or overweight. wegovy® shouldn't be used with semaglutide or glp-1 medicines. don't take wegovy®

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